“Self-determination is for nations/races”

Why is this a correct statement?

Based on what? Why cannot others define themselves in the way they want to? Are you also not denying the Palestinians their right to self-determination? Who are you to say or, anyone to say, how Jews should define themselves, particularly when the definitions are created with a view to denying them any identity at all.
Historically, when it comes to defining Jews by others, it has been done to keep them subjugated or to murder them. (Arabia, Christendom and Nazism). Thank you very much.

“nowhere did it say ‘the majority of land was uncultivated and could not be bought.”

This is precisely the point that Blair (in Capitalism Magazine) is trying to refute unsuccessfully. Nowhere in the quote is Ahad Haam saying that the land was cultivated everywhere. He is complaining that there is a scarcity of sowed land for sale, since it it is the only land under Ottoman Rule one could have bought. Uncultivated land was therefore not for sale and I say, taking into account the overwhelming evidence of descriptions cited in Friedman’s book, the majority of the land was uncultivated. Hence that is why the JNF were only able to show that 8% was purchased land, since the early Zionists were unable to buy the land that was uncultivated.

If you do the maths, which says that 20% , by the time the British arrived, was owned by Arabs, 8% was owned by the Zionists, that leaves around 72% under the British Mandate , which was formally Ottoman owned land, of which a great deal of it was likely to have been uncultivated land, since the Turks did not farm the land was not owned by either Arab or Jew.

From this, we can easily deduce that the land was not “empty”, but was sparsely populated and in many parts uninhabited or with tiny settlements.

As I say RS, read the book!

When it comes to defaming Jews, their religion and their history, your name is clearly stamped on every page. To you, Israel, Judaism, Jews , Kings of Israel: it’s all a myth made up by those “zionists” to justify colonialism or the nefarious State of Israel. Perhaps you could write a version of the Bible for them to clear up all their myths. I suggest you might start it like this:

Chap 1: In the beginning God created the heavens and the Palestinians …

At least you’ll be happy.

Self-determination is for nations/races, since when has it applied to religions as well? Or do you deny the matter of judaism’s undeniable history of conversion and proselytism? tell me what a persian jew, a falasha and say….Woody Allen share with eachother aside form anything to with religion?

http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/index.php?news=2136

Very disingenous joshua, nowhere did it say ‘the majority of land was uncultivated and could not be bought.’

‘Yeh well you’ll obviously need to see the photos to see the point. And btw read the book.’

Yeah well, I was there last May and saw for myself. So you don’t Israel looks empty and unpopulated, so you can have no complaints if say, the Roma started immigrating and ethnically cleansing the israelites living there? Or are you starting to see the idiocy of propagating this ‘land without a people..’ myth?

‘King Jehu of the Kingdom of Judah paying tribute to the Assyrian King’

A great independent kingdom paying ‘tribute’ to another kingdom? Oh dear is that another nail into the great jewish kingdoms myth?

‘n the present paradigm it will require a country (Israel) to relinquish lands to another who have never had a history of government.’

I suppose you think Britain should still rule half the globe in that case? But I’ll admit im not surprised at your imperial colonist attitude to those pesky natives.

‘As for continuity and the recent discovery of Palestinian Arabs who are descended from Jews dating from the time of Bar Kochba’

I’m well aware that Palestinians are also descended from Jews. How do you think Islam and Christianity spread in the region without it? But you seem to have ignored the little matter of Judaism’s history of proselytism. Which kind of rubbishes the world Jewry descended from ancient israel/judah myth. So how come the zionists didn’t have their eye on the Steppes of the Caucasus as well eh? ;)

I’d like to say to RepublicanStones something else. He or she speaks of crimes committed against the Palestinians. He or she speaks of injustice caused by Jews denying that the lands were inhabited to justify settlement etc. I am not convinced that he or she speaks with any true conviction about the situation. His or her feelings appear to be guided by the experience of Irish nationalists and the equating of Israel/British oppression in Ireland. Indeed there are parts of this narrative that rhyme with the Arab israeli experience, but they are not the same. Each history is different to the extent that Middle East society is largely dominated by tribal codes (less so by nationalism and less so than by religion, though religion play their parts). Tribalism is binding but it also exhibits a natural rejection to anything that might cause that way of life to change and it is resisted. There is much division in Arabia, but on this point there is some unity.

Palestinian Arabs have a difficult path ahead and if they are to have a country must abide by some of the norms a nation state has. In the present paradigm it will require a country (Israel) to relinquish lands to another who have never had a history of government. It will require the support of the other Arab nation states who will have to respect its sovereignty and the sovereignty of a Jewish State. These will be huge advances in the societies that exist in the region and it may be just too much to expect at present. If critics of Israel are able to grasp this point then there is plenty to get on with, but today’s critics are quite content to withdraw to the middle ages since that is preferred over advancing the Jewish right to self-determination.

1. “Arabs owned only one fifth of the land when the United Nations voted to partition Palestine.

Hang on, how does that work? Because jews actually only legally aquired 7-8% of the state which they were to be given…and you check the records of the JNF for that.”

Did anyone imply from this that Jews “owned” four fifths RepublicanStones? No. It was you who implied this. You are right. The Jews owned 7-8% and Britsh statistics confirm that the mandatory Government owned around 70%, which means that the remaining 22-23% (approximately 1/5) was owned by Arabs.

2. “Furthermore you must jump in your time machine and go back and correct english clergyman HB Tristram when he was writing in the mid 1800’s about his travels to Palestine and his view of the wonderful sight of Jabul Nablus”

HB Tristram may well have caught an idyllic snapshot of Nablus. it indeed was at one time a commercial centre and had a large population of around 20,000 inhabitants. But what does the traveller around the turn of the century have to put up with when he gets there. Baedeker (1906) says Nablus “contains few attractions beyond the bazaar and mosques” Henry van Dyke said “It has a Turkish governor,a garrison, several soap factories and a million dogs which howl all night” (we should not take the figure 1 million here too literally). Whilst known for soap Professor Dunning evidences “Certainly the inhabitants do not use much of it”.

And if that’s not enough, what were the recommendations given about hanging around. Well take a look at what John Hackenbroch writes: …no traveller can stay an hour in Nablus without hearing the plaintive cry of Lepers. Unhappily these poor creatures intrude their misfortunes before the gaze of the stranger, who is often sorely tired at witnessing the distorted faces and wasting limbs, and to hear the horrible and husky wail peculiar to themselves.

Yes, but how safe was it to visit in 1873?
Lorenzo Snow pointed out that the “daring and ferocious” residents of Nablus seemed ready to employ their flint-locks,daggers, pistols and large knobheaded clubs against any stranger on the slightest provocation. Pierre Van Passen goes into some detail about religious fanatacism. Never mind about the Jews, look what he says about the Samaritans,”Their sacrifice atop Mt Gerizim was usually interrupted by “the presence of jeering group of hoodlums from Nablus”

And so on and so on, page after page after page. Meticulously annotated.

3.”One of the few decent zionists, Ahad Ha’am (cultural zionist) put this fallacy of desolate and wasteland palestine to bed when writing in 1891 he admitted

“We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed…. But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains …. are not cultivated.”

Perhaps we should have the full quote and give it a bit of context:

“We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed AND THAT ANYONE WHO WISHES TO PURCHASE LAND THERE MAY DO SO TO HIS HEART”S CONTENT But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains THAT ARE NOT FIT TO GROW BUT FRUIT TREES- AND THIS ONLY AFTER HARD LABOUR AND GREAT EXPENSE AND RECLAMATION-ONLY THEASE are not cultivated BECAUSE THE ARABS DO NOT LIKE TO EXERT THEMSELVES IN THE PRESENT FOR A DISTANT FUTURE. FOR THIS REASON THE OPPORTUNITY TO PURCHASE GOOD SOIL DOES NOT ALWAYS EXIST. BOTH THE FARMERS AND THE LARGE LANDHOLDERS ARE RELUCTANT TO SELL GOOD PRODUCTIVE LAND. MANY OF OUR BROTHERS WHO CAME TO PALESTINE TO BUY LAND WAIT FOR MONTHS,HAVE CRISS-CROSSED THE LAND AND HAVE NOT YET FOUND WHAT THEY SEEK.”

Context: Under Ottoman rule, uncultivated land reverted to the state. Ottoman restrictions prevented Jews from purchasing land from the state lands, which made up a significant portion of the land available, so the Jews were only able to buy cultivated land while the majority of land was uncultivated and could not be bought.

Very disingenuous RepublicanStones for being so selective in your quoting.

4. “You are aware are you not that it is possible in this day and age to stand in thousands of places acrosss Israel and take pictures and you would see nothing but rocky hills and sandy dunes.”

Yeh well you’ll obviously need to see the photos to see the point. And btw read the book.

5. The first point is about Bible as History and RepublicanStones’ very wide knowledge of archeology. He need only visit the British Museum to see the Obelisk of Shalmaneser lll and King Jehu of the Kingdom of Judah paying tribute to the Assyrian King to realise that the Bible has much to say about Jewish history,(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Obelisk_of_Shalmaneser_III)

As for continuity and the recent discovery of Palestinian Arabs who are descended from Jews dating from the time of Bar Kochba, this little clip should satisfy some of your curiosity for knowledge about this sadly lacking gap in RepublicanStone’s education and to stop the endless bigotry that we have to put up with daily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNHj0xu1zvg

Even if Another Joshau won’t get to read this Robin, we can laugh together heh ;)

You are aware are you not that it is possible in this day and age to stand in thousands of places acrosss Israel and take pictures and you would see nothing but rocky hills and sandy dunes.

One of the few decent zionists, Ahad Ha’am (cultural zionist) put this fallacy of desolate and wasteland palestine to bed when writing in 1891 he admitted

“We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ….. But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains …. are not cultivated.”

How do you think the Ottoman’s were able to aquire the taxes from the provence of Palestine if it was an uninhabited wasteland?

Furthermore you must jump in your time machine and go back and correct english clergyman HB Tristram when he was writing in the mid 1800′s about his travels to Palestine and his view of the wonderful sight of Jabul Nablus

‘Its beauty can hardly be exaggerated…Clusters of white-roofed houses nestling in the bosom of a mass of trees, olive,palm, orange, apricot, and many another varying the carpet with every shade of gree…Everything fresh, green, soft, and picturesque, with verdure, shade, and water everywhere…a rich blue haze from the many springs and steamlets, which mellows every hard ouline..’

Arabs owned only one fifth of the land when the United Nations voted to partition Palestine.

Hang on, how does that work? Because jews actually only legally aquired 7-8% of the state which they were to be given…and you check the records of the JNF for that.

Seriously, Israel could do itself a lot of favours by putting an end to trying to perpetuate these false claims of land without a people for a people….etc, and actually admitted the crime it comitted against the indigenous people of plaestine. Simply claiming there was nobody there (which demonstrates zionists themselves knew their enterprise was immoral so had to pretend it was empty) or that the Palestinians were not ‘a people’ (in which case you must think Britian should still govern half the globe) only prevents a reapproachment with the vicitms of zionism. There is a better chance for peace if Israel was to ow up to its original sin. It would be the mark of a mature nation.

And they hve been indigenous to many other places on the globe. Judaism the religion began in the levant, its intellectually dishonest to claim world jewry are descended from there.

“Before 1948 the only independent sovereign state there had been the ancient Jewish kingdoms. Centuries of foreign imperial occupation followed, by Romans, the Muslim conquest, Crusaders, the Ottoman empire and the British mandate. It is fitting that as the colonial era drew to a close, Israel’s original inhabitants restored their independence.”

Hang on, his claim seeks to treat the bile as a history book. Unfortunately for him science and little things like archeology demonstrate that these great jewish kingdoms were little more than city states. And also he claims jews were the original inhabitants???? Wrong yet again, that land was inhabited long before Abraham or Moses. Sure even the Israelites claimed they conquered the land from the indigenous people inhabiting it !!!

the notion that the Jews are imposters in the Middle East is surely the most dangerous and damaging.

Who claimed jews are imposters? Judaism as a religion certainly descended from the levant, but you are aware of the history of proselyzim and conversion which judaism has are you not? Hell need we even mention the khazars? The problem lies in people believing world jewry have a right to own the land of others simply because their religion pre-dates that of the current indigneous peoples. Explain why you support that logic Robin please?

Also would you care to explain why it is you think no jews converted to Islam or christianity? Indeed I’d love to hear how you think christianity spread without jewish converts?

I realise you will not post this comment Mr Shepherd, because Israeli apologists have an aversion to pritnitng the truth, and indeed seem loathe to try and explain their own self-defeating logic !