New UK Premier David Cameron employs extreme rhetoric against Israel
Britain’s new Conservative Prime Minister, David Cameron, is being quoted on Tuesday as employing the kind of deeply hostile rhetoric against Israel that is more usually associated with the extremist and activist community or with well known detractors of the Jewish state in the British media.
Cameron is quoted on the Conservative Home website — a popular site for grassroots supporters which is close to the party but which is not formally affiliated to it — as calling Gaza a “prison camp” in a speech he made while on a visit to Turkey. This sort of language lies at the softer end of an extreme form of discourse which routinely describes Gaza as an “open air prison”, or even a “concentration camp” and which always airbrushes Hamas anti-Semitism and its annihilationist ambitions against Israel and the Jews out of the equation.
Cameron employed precisely such a strategy in his speech, where he — or his speechwriter — even blundered into territory which could be construed as making him look soft on terrorism.
“…the situation in Gaza has to change,” he said. “Humanitarian goods and people must flow in both directions. Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp”.
The point at issue here comes in the words “humanitarian goods and people must flow in both directions”. The first part is a classic red-herring since genuine humanitarian aid already flows into Gaza. But what precisely does a British prime minister think he is doing suggesting that Israel should free up its borders with a zone packed full of would-be suicide bombers?
The kindest explanation is that he is simply being careless and on reflection would probably have wanted to add that Israel is of course entitled to be careful about which Gazans it lets into Israel. But careless talk costs lives and Cameron or his advisers should be aware that it is precisely because they want the option of sending waves of suicide bombers into Israel that Hamas has been so vocal in calling for its people to be allowed into Israel without restriction.
A harsher explanation of what is at work here is that Cameron has constructed his political personality around a desire to be seen as the kind of Conservative who is palatable to “progressive” opinion — a desire which has been redoubled by joining the Left-leaning Liberal Democrats to form a coalition government.
For the purposes of this discussion, this means going soft on terrorism, going quiet on Arab and Muslim anti-Semitism and, of course joining forces with the great global campaign of deligitimisation of the State of Israel. Hence the Gaza as a “prison camp” rhetoric and hence the absence of any reference whatsoever to Hamas’s terroristic ambitions or its vile anti-Semitism.
It is not yet clear which of these two alternatives comes closest to explaining what is going on. It is now time for friends of Israel in the British Conservative party to make sure that it is the first and not the second, and when they’ve done that to use their good offices to ensure that such carelessly grotesque rhetoric is never again employed against Israel by a Conservative British Prime Minister.
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Those readers interested in a more extensive explanation of the anti-Israeli agenda in Britain and Europe may like to see my book A State Beyond the Pale: Europe’s Problem with Israel.
July 27th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10767768
I have never trusted Cameron,whom I have always viewed as an opportunist, but now I question his judgement in a more fundamental way.
Gaza is a ‘prison camp’; he is ‘angry’ at the apparent delays in processing Turkey’s EU application.
What game is he playing ? What are the true motives behind this openly partisan stance ?
It ill behoves a British politician to display such flawed judgement.
Is he cynically aligning himself with what he perceives to be the winning side? Appeasement disguised as progressive conservatism ?
Obama-lite perhaps?
I’ve just signed the petition on the new Friends of Israel website : I wonder how many of our MPs have signed?
July 27th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Hypocritical and despicable.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
Comments at the JC:
1) Cameron’s chutzpah by Marcus Dysch
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/camerons-chutzpah
2) Bad news on Cameron by Miriam Shaviv
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/bad-news-cameron
3) Humanitarian goods by Stephen Pollard
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/humanitarian-goods
July 27th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Cameron should read what Khaled Abu Toameh has to say:
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1433/arabs-and-muslims-run-to-israel
When did you ever see this mentioned in the Western media?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
ANYONE WHO HAS READ ONE LINE BY MELANIE P. KNEW WHAT TO EXPECT.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Was waitting for Yours response…
Now its Melanie turn…
Thank You for support
July 27th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
I voted Conservative for the first time in my life on the basis that they were the ‘least bad’ of the three main parties. I regret voting for them now.
Cameron’s surprisingly outspoken comments smack of desperation both on his part and that of President Obama. They are afraid of Turkey going adrift and turning its back on Europe and NATO to form a new strategic alliance with Iran and Syria. They may already have missed the boat.
I also sense they’re desperate to pressurise Iran by maximising its sense of isolation, having belatedly realised the seriousness of Iran’s imminent nuclear threat. Obama’s failed and foolish attempts to engage in diplomacy with Iran add to this urgency. He needs to save face.
As for Cameron’s Gaza comments, he does not strike me as a careless type. I reckon he’s calculated that putting the boot into Israel generates more benefit than cost, especially before a Turkish audience. What is disturbing is that his statements reward Erdogan’s belligerence, especially given the suspicions of collusion between the Turkish authorities and IHH.
The sudden shift in tone reinforces accusations that Cameron is a shallow and opportunistic politician. I had previously suspended judgement on that, but I’ve now become sceptical. They used to accuse Tony Blair of being George W. Bush’s poodle. I’m wondering whether Cameron is now Barak Obama’s poodle ?
July 27th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
Robin Shepherd says: Gabor, I will let this through, but you must understand that although I am very critical of my country’s stance on Israel, that criticism stems from a proud belief that Britain is much better than this. If it wasn’t for that better side of Britain not a single Jew in Europe would have survived World War II. So, although I admire and respect your passion, please stay on the side of open-mindedness about what is going on in Britain. After all, if it’s a blanket attack on the UK, that applies to non-Jews like me too. And no-one has ever accused me of being soft on Israel’s critics… BTW, and this applies to everyone, short sharp comments are much more effective than op-ed length comments. No-one pays me to run this site and I have no back up when I go to the pub for a well earned (I hope) beer!! But all the best to you and keep those (very concise) comments coming…
———————————
Perhaps this latest comment of mine will be censored,but here is my thought on the question:
It’s clear that dementia and insanity increasingly closes in on Cameron and his advisers and schlepp.
Let’s make a deal Mr. Cameron:
You can advocate Turkey’s entry into the EU as long as WE -citizens of the European Union – are allowed to campaign againt YOUR stay inside the EU any longer, and hopefully this campaign would gain some traction among the other members.
It’s increasingly clear that you are, i.e.: Britain, is the weakest link in Europe (again, C. Glick’s parlance), and as such it has amply demonstrated that it’s quite a threat to Western modernism, -cohesion, – sense of purpose and – unity.
The two most fervent backers of the Turks’ accesion are by far, by FAR!, are the two most harmful and intimidating countries, Britain and Sweden.
It would be best for us still sane citizens of continental Europe to actually rise from our butts and start to initiate a Europe-wide petition to kick you out from the EU once and for all. I am DEAD SERIOUS. (Btw, this way, you won’t have to whine ever again about the nasty French’ influence.) Of course, we have zero chance to do so, alas.
Robin Shepherd may reasonably think that my views are radical, but just think about it. Both Sweden and Britain are geographically isolated from the mainland. It would be best for everyone if these contries would split and stand on their own two feet. We could also dump our problematic communities into the Brits’ and Swedes’ welcoming arms liberating us. (I also heavily favour undoing the present-day European Union too on conservative grounds and getting rid of the excesses of Brussels in both senses. Brussels as a term for the EU and Brussels as the phisycal capital of the failed state – and heavily antisemitic state at that – “Belgium”.)
Moreover, the two countries, Sweden and Britain – with the latter multiple times more, due to its potential and size – are accute sources of D*A*N*G*E*R to a future Europe in my view. They both simply spread weakness, appeasement, philo-Islamist-extremism, and to a high degree anti-Semitism/brutal and excessive anti-Zionism as well. This is also clear from the sheer fact that both – nominally – have conservative administrations leading them, but alas, they are hardly any better than far-leftists.Their geenral behaviour are reprehensible and repugnant.
Both are basically dying societies and practically, pardon my lucid language, carcasses.
Granted, I would not shed a single teardrop for either of them (from me Britain could well sink into the North Sea and thus into oblivion, but please do not “verb of a single syllable + up” Europe and life itself for us those Europeans presently untainted by death-wish and Islamomania. Please Britain – and this applies to the Scots and Welsh, too) leave us alone and let us live, if you are unable to do that colelctively.
A few words about antisemitism, cause a reader engaged in debate with me on this.
Please Joshua, the fact that you have not personally experienced prejudice yourself as a single individual is immaterial and totally meaningless. It simple doesn’t say anything important statistically. It’s unscientific. There are thousands of Jews here in Hungary who also didn’t. Conversely, I am pretty sure that there are those Jews in England who in contrast DID experience it themselves. So what does that say about the situation? Nothing. Actually it’s somewhat more meaningful if we think that a resident Jew-hater in FCO – a mid-level ranting official – barely got a slap on his wrist for his outrage during the Gaza war in a London gym. There was virtually NO punishment. Perhaps even fourth rate statelets on the Balkan had more decency in a similar situation. But it’s London, England we’re talking about, Joshua. (Contrary what he would have got if he opened his foul mouth against any other ethnic, religious or racial minority. I don’t think that you can explain away this.) It’s clear that Britain tolerates Jew-hatred and absolutely not bothered by it – if and when it gets out into the public domain as opposed to France for example I reckon.
Your country Joshua is, imho, is reprehensible and frightening. It is clearly destined to fail and go into break-up in the coming decades.
Please, try to understand, we do not wish to share your collective fate here on the Continent. Thank You.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
This tirade from Cameron stems from the Brokeback connection. Clegg is very hostile to Israel so it is very probable that this Israel-bashing is part of the coalition agreement.
Cameron is right in one instance – Gaza is indeed a prison camp but only for a single prisoner – Gilad Schalit. But true to form Cameron did not mention this poor soldier.
As for Turkey joining the EU , it has been said that its entry will stem the jihadist from swamping Europe. A very late and naive view. There are at least 25 million already here in Europe.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
If Gaza is a prison camp, the prison was made by Hamas. meanwhile their markets are full, they have a new shopping mall, they have coffee shops with internet access.
Some prison! Their standard of living is higher than in most moslem countries.
Cameron is a fool, dishonest and anti-Semitic. His words are worth nil.
July 27th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Speaking of Turkey joining Europe, the French and the Germans are against it. Having millions of Islamist Muslims joining Europe is not exactly what Europeans are keen to have. It will be a cold day in hell before Cameron’s call is ever acted upon.
July 27th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
Cameron is fast becoming the worst PM in UK history. A classic upper-middle class twit, with all the usal prejudices. To me the give-away with Cameron was when he was interviewed by the Jewish Chronicle shortly after becoming Party leader. The most positive thing he could bring himself to say about Israel was “I believe Israel has a right to exist”. As far as I’m concerned anybody who makes that statement is already revealing anti-semitism because they would not make the same statement about any other country in the world including the very many which were created during the twentieth century with far less obvious legitimacy than Israel (think Pakistan as an obvious example, but also virtually every single Arab country was a purely artifical creation). If anybody ever says that to me I always thank them and respond by saying “that’s very kind because I think you also have a right to exist”.
I’ve written about this here:
http://edgar1981.blogspot.com/2010/07/david-cameron-ignorant-anti-semite.html
July 27th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
What really annoys me about Cameron’s comments is the fact that they confirm a dangerously one-sided view about the situation in the Middle East – ie – Israel is the bad boy and all other parties are whiter than white. Don’t get me wrong – although I am a passionate Zionist and supporter of Israel, I despise the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Furthermore, Cameron’s assertion that the Gaza Strip is not much more than a prison camp for its population is something that I can’t disagree with. However, where we do digress is identifying the group responsible for the situation. Cameron infers that it is the Israeli government and clearly that is not the case. Hamas is responsible and if anyone wishes to disagree then I say this: how come life for Palestinians living in the West Bank is getting better on a week by week basis while life for the poor citizens of Gaza is getting worse and worse?
July 27th, 2010 at 10:32 pm
OK. After I reread my own comment now, it’s a bit “iffy”. Sorry about my habitual insults, really. Sorry about that. What c/should be DONE about this sorry state of affaires in the world???
(I’m disappointed with “Shameron” as one Tory blogger named him… He seems to be an opportunist and a calculative cheap guy.)
July 27th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Robin – re. your comments about postings. I think the key criterion is that postings should be interesting, ie. they bring some different insights or new and relevant information to the discussion. The key thing is quality rather than length. Much as I admire Gabor’s command of the English language, I haven’t read his postings for some while as they tend to be long rants and don’t make me any the wiser. I do read everybody else’s postings and in the main they’re very good. And thanks again Robin for your consistently perceptive analyses. You’ve chosen the most difficult topic imaginable – what goes on inside people’s heads. Absolute bloody mystery, especially Cameron’s.
Robin Shepherd says: In general terms, agreed and Gabor is obviously a great guy who cares deeply. So, this is a learning process for all of us: I manicure a lot of my thinking according to all of your comments.That’s why we’re all here.
July 27th, 2010 at 11:27 pm
The Zionist response to this is irrational and pure propaganda. They seem to have learnt all too well the lessons the barbaric Nazi’s taught the world.
Robin Shepherd says: Readers should note that now and again I allow this sort of thing through — just to show the depravity of what we are up against….
July 28th, 2010 at 12:04 am
Does it matter that Cameron is, in fact, Jewish? Isn’t he allowed to call an open air prison a prison? Doesn’t he have an obligation to point out cruel and inhumane treatment wherever it may exist?
Gaza is just one example of the Israeli attempt to simply make the Palestinians go away (e.g., ethnic cleansing), but it will not work.
Robin Shepherd says: Not very intelligent. If the Israelis were interested in ethnic cleansing why don’t they just do it? Senseless rubbish…
July 28th, 2010 at 2:02 am
Re: Jonathan Karmi
No, Jonathan, what you really *mean* by “ranting” is the oh-so-often-appearing psychological defense mechanism most accurately described by as “TRUTH HURTS”.
One good advice to you Jonathan: emphatically NOT as a “threat” or anything: Please do not wish to engage in a historical debate on the United Kingdom and the moral implications of its history, because I guarantee that I’ll be the one who is gonna win that debate. Please remember, I don’t have to be deferential to your British sensibilities and pains. And I even have the right for my coup de grace: to prefer the “arch enemy” France to your country. Curiously, the exact inverse what and how I was thinking 5-10 years ago.
Good night!
July 28th, 2010 at 4:29 am
stewmorr..
Life is better in the West Bank.. and getting betterday by day??
What Hasbaro are you subscibed to?
Life in Gaza is pretty horrible.. Try it for a day or two.
Road blocks and check points (500+) manned by gun toting youth intrude upon life all the time, segregated roads, different coloured number plates on cars, increasing numbers of illegal settlements, criminal behaviour by the squatters on hill tops, the unspeakable barbarity of the Hebron zealots, (again, protected by the army even as they are allowed to carry heavy weapons).. Ongoing destruction of farms and theft of land..
Do you really know what you are tapping away about?
alan..
“..they have coffe shops with internet access..”
Gosh, then everything else is alright…
But.. but.. but then why does the IOF impose a blockade on almost everything if everything is getting in anyway??
Do you mean to say the IOF blockade is NOT effective??
edgar..
If the continuing existence of Israel in its present form is predicated on a continuation of the violence currently carried out against over 6 million Palestinian Arabs, then what does that say about the heart and soul of the people doing the oppressing?
July 28th, 2010 at 6:11 am
http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/28773
This is worth reading :it may cast some light on Cameron’s pronouncements and the art of deception.
And I add my thanks and appreciation for such an excellent, and civilised site.
July 28th, 2010 at 11:10 am
With reference to David Cameron’s “prison camp” remark, it’s worth noting that prior to the Second Intifada in 2000, very large numbers of Gazans worked in Israel in agriculture and construction. It was only as a response to terror attacks that border closures were implemented.
After his statements about Britain in 1940, it seems Cameron was looking out the window daydreaming during History at school. Nothing much has changed since.
July 28th, 2010 at 11:21 am
“I haven’t read his postings for some while as they tend to be long rants and don’t make me any the wiser.”
I agree totally. It appears that his real purpose on his forum is not to support the Jewish people or Jewish state but to bash Britain. I have no idea why such an insightful and intelligent individual like Robin Shepherd continues to allow him to post here.
On the other hand…
Robin Shepherd writes:
“If it wasn’t for that better side of Britain not a single Jew in Europe would have survived World War II.”
Britain fought that war in spite of the Jewish people and not because of them. Not only did she not lift a finger to help the drowning Jews of Europe, she did much to prevent their rescue. As regards that last I have in mind particularly the 1939 White Paper and the Evian and Bermuda conferences. No, Britain was obviously no Hungary, a nation that collaborated almost completely in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews, but she was no innocent either. It is perhaps lucky that the Nazis and their allies didn’t invade in 1940 and she wasn’t tested in quite the same way as the occupied nations of Europe. Certainly, if the Channel Islands had been the template perhaps I might even have had to withdraw my comment above about Britain being no Hungary.
July 28th, 2010 at 11:24 am
First and foremost:
Mr. Shepherd – you’re a wonderful writer and I greatly enjoy reading your articles, long and short as one!
Now, to Mr. “therzal”:
You wrote “Life in Gaza is pretty horrible.. Try it for a day or two.”
To which I reply: So terrible, they couldn’t even afford to buy in the new mall they just built, eh? (http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001127.html)
As for the “violence currently carried out against over 6 million Palestinian Arabs” – I wasn’t aware there are 6 million of them in the west-bank & Gaza, I guess you count 2,300,000+/- in the WB and roughly 1,500,000 in Gaza as 6…
I’d love you to manage my bank account!
Also, you talk about “oppression” which is a hoot!
The “palestinians” are the LEAST oppressed people in the Arab world.
If ANYHTING, they enjoy more freedoms than any other Arab (aside from those who live in a western country).
Also, the “palestinians” GOP is the HIGHEST in the whole of the Arab world…
Basically, you’re just an uneducated hypocrite… ;)
July 28th, 2010 at 11:31 am
therzal writes:
‘If the continuing existence of Israel in its present form…’
I take it you are the therzal who wrote this:
‘For a scholarly and well argued analysis to the whys and wherefores of the huge (and disproportionate) amount of writng on the Holocaust, see Finkelstein’s book, “The Holocaust Industry” ‘
http://antonyloewenstein.com/2006/07/10/finally-some-home-truths/
No prizes for guessing why you hate the the Jewish state.
Of all your comments, though, this is my favourite:
‘ “Weapons of Mass Destruction” and “War on Terror” are both code words designed to invoke a Pavlovian response, a slavish slobbering at the prospect of slaughtering even more foreigners, who clearly “hate us for what we have, even though most of it we have stolen from them..”.’
therzal | Melbourne – February 22, 2010, 10:45AM
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/weapons-of-mass-persuasion-20100221-oo01.html
I take it you will be leaving Australia at the very first opportunity.
July 28th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/site/en/weizman.asp?pi=371&doc_id=6172
http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/site/en/weizman.asp?pi=371&doc_id=6174
A couple of links here-about the Weizmann Institute-which would seem to counter the ‘rogue Zionist State run by Nazis’ accusations made by so many of Israel’s detractors.
Apologies for straying from the immediate topic of conversation, but a country which produces such a high,and humane, standard of cutting-edge research can hardly be described as a rogue and illegitimate entity run by Nazis.
July 28th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Jenny Tonge and the anti-semitic wing of the Liberal party must be dancing with joy.
But how hypocritical of Cameron to demand Israel open its borders to Hamas, while legislating to cap immigration from non-EU (translation: Muslim) countries to the UK.
July 28th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
I have the same reaction as Edgar Davidson regarding Cameron’s comment to the Jewish Chronicle that “The most positive thing he could bring himself to say about Israel was “I believe Israel has a right to exist”.”
Cameron’s speech in Turkey was gratuitously supine, brainless and shameless. I hope that someone will ask some pointed questions at the next Prime Minister’s question hour in the House of Commons.
July 28th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
“Does it matter that Cameron is, in fact, Jewish?”
1) He isn’t.
2) Even if he were, what difference would that make? Every nation in the world has its share of fools and traitors. The Jewish nation is no different.
July 28th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
“One day on; or the morning after” – final reply
!
I make an effort to be as short as I can. Everything I say or write here is factually correct and are backed up by evidence.
1. Joshua is right; Hungary committed crimes against humanity between §38-44, among others my own grandmother who was deported to Auschwitz-birkenau in May ’44 and miraculously survived. My grandfather was deported to aSwerbian labour camp in Bor; also somehow survived, though made partly deaf by Hungarian thugs who beat him up when forced marchinng back on foot back to Hungary. I’m a patrilineal Jew (I know that many bigots don’t consider me as such – their problem, not mine.)
2. Cameron behaved reprehensibly and what he said is untenable, shameful and sorry to say, disgusting with all its implications. Other prominet European leaders didn’t use such a language. Jackson Diehl of the eminently standard bearer Washington Post slammed him to the ground – for good reason. Further: imho this man is simply NOT of PM-material. This man is a moral and intellectual niemand.
3. Latly: It’s actually true when I compare France and Britain that the French , their secret services, their security apparatuses and police ALL take radical/extremist Islam much more seriously than Britain. A built-in French secret agent was amazed at the incompetence and leniency what was going on in Britain before the 7/7 tragedy in an interview I had the luck to see. The French are extremely ferocious in combatting Islamist terror, especially after the Algerian GIA exploded a bomb in the Paris metro just across the Notre Dame in 1995. They are imo BETTER than even the Americans compared to them. That’s partly the reason I prefer the French approach to certain things to the American/British. Even bret Stephens in an old column praised the french when he was editor-in-chief of JP back in 2005, while he was a harsh critic of the Chirac era – naturally, me too. I run out of place I understand. I am sorry if I upset readers here.
July 28th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Cameron’s comments are despicable. I wonder if he asked Erdogan why Turkey continues to occupy northern Cyprus, why Turkey is routinely bombing Kurdish villages in north Iraq and why Turkey has thrown away past agreements with Israel and is assisting Syria militarily in massacring Kurds inside Syria – something which is happening right now, and which the media ignores? What a bunch of hypocrites. Cameon should be ashamed.
July 29th, 2010 at 10:17 am
Gabor Frankl,
“…It’s actually true when I compare France and Britain that the French , their secret services, their security apparatuses and police ALL take radical/extremist Islam much more seriously than Britain…”
How exactly do you square this with France’s years and years of open and warm support for Yasser Arafat’s PLO. Yasser Arafat died in a Paris hospital a freedom fighting hero to the French people and government. What a way to fight Islamis terrorism!
Steve, london
July 29th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
“I’m a patrilineal Jew (I know that many bigots don’t consider me as such – their problem, not mine.)
I have decided to establish a new sect – Joshua Jews. According to my rules pork is now kosher, Shabbat has been abolished and matzo must be eaten on every alternate Wednesday but never at Pesach. Furthermore, any individual who possesses blue eyes, one leg and a Burberry trenchcoat may in future consider himself Jewish if he posts three pro-Israeli comments at Robin Shepherd’s blog. I know that many bigots will not consider these people to be Jewish, but that is their problem and not mine.
July 29th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
“…It’s actually true when I compare France and Britain that the French , their secret services, their security apparatuses and police ALL take radical/extremist Islam much more seriously than Britain”
And who can forget the wonderful way they treated Jews during World War II or the great love and warmth French leaders have always displayed towards the Jewish people?
Charles de Gaulle once famously referred to the Jews as an “arrogant and domineering people”. – Robin Shepherd
http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/guardian-calls-israel-an-arrogant-nation-gives-op-ed-to-foreign-office-grandee-who-complained-about-jews-on-the-iraq-inquiry/
July 29th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
Robin,
I just want you to know how much I appreciate your blog. After reading so much of the vitriol and hatred out there, I find comfort in your words.
By the way, have you read “To the chorus of chronic, compulsive critics of Israel~ by David Harris? It’s terrific.
July 29th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
Joshua, cool it please. If Gábor wants to identify himself with the Jewish people, that’s fine by me.
I’m 100% Jewish by parentage, but don’t keep kosher, never go to synagogue and don’t believe in God. But I have Israeli nationality, speak the language fluently and did sherut sadir over there. I respect anyone who supports Israel’s national struggle, so long as respect and consideration are also shown towards other nationalities.
July 29th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Joshua,
So you think that someone with a Jewish father and a gentile mother is no more Jewish than a Dagenham chav in a rain mac?
Very very stupid.
Sometimes I can almost understand where a bigots apparently irrational hatred of Jews might stem from!
July 29th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Apologies for going off-topic a little here!
Joshua – I think you will find that the various Reform movements would consider Gabor to be Jewish – if he so chose and if he followed the religion.
The ‘Jewish only by matrilineal descent’ rule was very appropriate for its time but if we consider the rationale for it – that one could always ascertain maternity but not necessarily paternity – it is no longer actually true because DNA testing can certainly establish paternity. The Reform and Liberal movements would argue that if something is now scientifically proven to be untrue, then by definition, it cannot be ‘holy’. If it is not ‘holy’, it is time to reconsider its place within Judaism.
Also consider what Gabor’s fate might well have been following the
Nuremberg laws. Hitler was hardly a slave to the ‘matrilineal line only’ school of thought.
Robin Shepherd says: Note to readers — this will be the last comment on this particular subject. Gabor did indeed raise the subject himself, but I think we’ve had enough on this by now. Feel free, of course, to write about the issue in general terms any time you like. But the less personalised the discourse the better in my view. Gabor has had some strong support as well as criticism, but I’m now calling time.
July 29th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
“Feel free, of course, to write about the issue in general terms any time you like.”
I shall take advantage of that offer if I may.
“The ‘Jewish only by matrilineal descent’ rule was very appropriate for its time but if we consider the rationale for it – that one could always ascertain maternity but not necessarily paternity”
You approach the matter as if all dictates of religion or culture must have have some rational basis. If that were so then we would have to abandon all religions and our cultures would become unrecognizable. There is a spiritual dimension to all of this than cannot be gainsaid. If you truly want to have a pick-’n-mix religion then you’d also have to accept my Joshua sect as perfectly legitimate. But why stop there? You know, we could also worship Christ, demolish the Western Wall and take Communion. What Reform Judaism has shown is that once we take the easy route and accept only that which we find easy or convenient then destruction of the Jewish people is not very far behind.
“Hitler was hardly a slave to the ‘matrilineal line only’ school of thought.”
I have always thought it a rather strange idea that the Jewish people should order their affairs according to the tenets of National Socialism. OK, imagine that the Nazis had considered as Jewish anyone who even “looked Jewish”. Should we as a consequence then accept all their descendants as Jews?
July 30th, 2010 at 12:37 am
Cameron’s views on Israel are at best dangerously naive. I recall the then inexperienced John Major’s appointment as Foreign Secretary under Thatcher in 1989 /1990 (?) making his first fact finding trip to Israel in the 80s and came out with the brilliant statement that Israel should stop building settlements and talk to the PLO. The comment unsurprisingly raised very few eyebrows. Cameron is just that, inexperienced and a product of “X Factor” ratings politics. Remember the TV debates?
July 30th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
For those of us who are following the career of Judge Bathurst-Norman, the Daily Mail are on the case:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1297219/Judge-faces-anti-semitism-probe-speech-attacking-Israel-helps-free-arms-factory-protesters.html#
July 30th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
Response to Steve, London
Steve, let’s disentangle two (three) things.
What you say is true, However! it doesn’t concern my praise of them. Firstly, its Arafat-loving era happened during Chirac, about whom I have an awfully bad opinion. Now it’s Sarkozy, let’s not forget about that. What tomorrow brings is anyone’s guess. But we are talking about two different things. I spoke about the behind-the-scenes work of secret services. In 1995 the Algerian group GIA bombed the Paris metro (8 dead), they are nearing 15 years without any terror offences on its soil. What happened after the 7/7 tragedy in the UK? Well, those who have a good memory remember the attempted atrocity in front of the “Tiger Tiger” nightclub car bombing, Glasgow airport smash burning car – that’s at least two after such a short period (the Crowley mall bombing-attempt, OK that was foiled). All these were done by Muslim phanatics and only luck prevented mass casualities. I base my claim on these facts. And just look at the “Ami’s” – what the CIA seems to be doing is worrying to say the least, Nidal Hassan case, Feisal Shachzad Times Square etc. etc. etc.
July 31st, 2010 at 7:17 am
Joshua
I’d rather have one Gabor than a thousand self-haters. No, make that ten-thousand!
July 31st, 2010 at 7:55 am
Christian readers of this blog may not know the full extent of Turkey’s derelictions as they are rarely discussed in the media.
100 years ago a quarter of the population was Christian but as a result of the Armenian massacre(and much else beside)they number only a few thousand in a population that is 99.7% Muslim.
Since 587 the head of the Orthodox church has been based at what is now Istanbul.But the Turkish authorities do not recognize him and place every obstacle in his way. He is not allowed to own property, church workers are denied visas and etc.
Only Armenians and Orthodox are recognized as communites – other churches face an enormous legal obstacle course.Many churches find it difficult to get permission for repairs- let alone build new churches. Since 2002 over 20 churches have had their recognition as places of worship withdrawn.
There is a constant background of hostility in the media and most worryingly a whole series of violent attacks in recent years, especially targeting priests, pastors and church workers. I find it difficult to undersand how Mr Cameron can continue to gloss over this catalogue of appalling abuse.
July 31st, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Gaza is a “prison camp”? As if to prove Mr. Cameron’s point, Gazans fired a Grad missile Friday morning into a residential area of the Israeli city of Ashkelon and two mortar shells into the Eshkol Regional Council in Israel’s western Negev. Excuse me, Mr. Cameron, but are you aware of any prisons in the U.K. where the inmates are firing missiles and mortar shells into neighboring cities?
August 1st, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Gabor, I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.
French support for Arrafat preceded Chirac and was certainly evident under Mitterand. As for Sarkozy, I think he arrived when Arrafat was already dead so we will cannot know what his opinion would have been.
The fact that the French have experienced less terrorism is almost certainly because of their continued support for Palestinian causes and opposition to the Iraq war and has little to do with internal counter-terrorism measures.
Having been pretty smug about their own ability to absorb immigrants into the ‘American way of life’ the USA have now experienced a number of ‘home grown terrorist incidents’ (Forth Worth, Times Square etc.) and I imagine are having to wake up to the threat of domestic Islamo-fascism as our security services have. For their sake I hope they are not as hamstrung as our own people by Shammi Chakrabatti and others of the cultural relativist brigade
August 4th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Steve, of course you have no idea. Why would you have “an idea”? It’s clear you didn’t understand a word of my comment. Yes, I ommitted Mitterrand and others before him perhaps, but it’s not relevant at all from my angle. As I said I was talking about a wholly different matter.
“The fact that the French have experienced less terrorism is almost certainly because of their continued support for Palestinian causes and opposition to the Iraq war and has little to do with internal counter-terrorism measures.”
Pardon me for the expression, but this is rubbish. It actually has a whole lot of to do with internal counter-terrorism measures. If you want to live in self-delusion then that’s your problem. Ever though about how come that France has more than twice in number of an Islamic community and zero terrorism? (The late 2005 car-burning “intifada” and other occasional rioting in the suburbs don’t quality as “terrorism” per se, AND Britain *also* had in in the North in 200-01.)
Tha fact remains that the French are lighyears ahead of the British (and to a lesser extant American) amateurishness and leniency Steve however painful for you to stomach this.
August 4th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Here’s a wonderful article on the Cameron speech by Barry Rubin. It’s a complete and utter fisking. Not for the squeamish …
http://www.gloria-center.org/gloria/2010/07/how-not-to-conduct-diplomacy
August 5th, 2010 at 1:07 am
Gabor Frankl,
I accept that French counter-terrorism operations, including harsh new laws which many consider an affront to civilzation, have played a part in the absence of islamic terrorism on French but it is not the sole reason and I’m sure that any intelligent asessment would confirm that their absence in the Gulf war etc. also played a part (funny how Spain has had no more attacks since their grovelling withdrawal from the war isn’t it?)
Mysteriously, in your rush to defend your position you fail to mention the 1998 failed attempt to bomb the French world cup, the 2005 conviction of Djamel Beghal for plotting to bomb the US embassy in Paris, the 2009 arrest of a 32 year old Algerian born researcher at the European Centre for Nuclear Research in Vienne, this years foiled plot to fly a helicopter loaded with ‘lethal chemical gas’ into the Eiffel Tower, etc.
It’s probably best to assume that we all have the same problem to deal with and stop with the one-upmanship don’t you think?
August 5th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Reacting on my part to #47: absolutely no doubt, the PM has almost totally discredited himself among seasoned and mature politicians (statesmen, – women). Do you think for a second that Cameron (and by implication, his country – since it’s a democratic state, after all) is not the object of deep ridicule and scorn behind his back at important EU or international fora?
August 7th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
No, I don’t think at all. For at least two reasons.
Reason #1: Current french President Sarkozy could esily have given a motivation for attacking France for perceived “grievences” since June 2007. They didn’t becuase they couldn’t. In England (and Scoltand)they tried and ONLY, I emphasize to you so as you understand finally – but I’m beginning to feel that it’s useless…, only sheer luck prevented the tragedy. That is one. Reason #2 What you cite here are mostly attempts in France. I didn’t bring up attempts at all. Surely there’s some trouble with you understanding the meaning of basic English vocabulary I’m afraid. What part of *attempts* and accomplished deeds prevented by luck you are unable to comprehend pray tell?! As for the Algerian guy in Vienne (Rhone-Alpes region), the case is murky. Murky, because he was also working at CERN in Geneva, Switzerland as far as I know so this makes the case not solely a French interest. But even thoguh, France has more than twice bigger an Islamic comm., and still the basic fact I tried to convey stands. On my part I close this useless debate with you.