Comments on: What will Obama tell the Muslims? http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/what-will-obama-tell-the-muslims/ Think Tank Blog: The online repository of articles on anti-Zionism and civilisational decline by analyst Robin Shepherd Sat, 09 Apr 2011 22:57:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Dina http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/what-will-obama-tell-the-muslims/#comment-53 Dina Mon, 25 May 2009 19:49:03 +0000 http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/?p=242#comment-53 But it's not democracy to selectively choose who will participate and who will not--that's the bottom line, and it's not for you or I to dictate that. That's falling into their trap. And, also the government's. The government keeps everyone out and is defended by the West and yet, we hold Islamists to another standard. Morocco is not a "pretty picture" for reasons not related to Islamist participation in the political process--it is for reasons related to the governing autocracy. And as for Turkey, I do not defend the recent restrictions, but they are finally having problems after years of extending freedoms and leading their country in the right direction. As for criticizing the Gaza war, their voice was not alone. Many countries "at peace" with Israel decried the war and its disproportionate impact on innocent civilians. Egyptian Islamist parties are in transition and undergoing internal ideological changes; their position on Israel as well as political pluralism (and more) is in flux and not a monolith. But it’s not democracy to selectively choose who will participate and who will not–that’s the bottom line, and it’s not for you or I to dictate that. That’s falling into their trap. And, also the government’s. The government keeps everyone out and is defended by the West and yet, we hold Islamists to another standard.

Morocco is not a “pretty picture” for reasons not related to Islamist participation in the political process–it is for reasons related to the governing autocracy. And as for Turkey, I do not defend the recent restrictions, but they are finally having problems after years of extending freedoms and leading their country in the right direction. As for criticizing the Gaza war, their voice was not alone. Many countries “at peace” with Israel decried the war and its disproportionate impact on innocent civilians.

Egyptian Islamist parties are in transition and undergoing internal ideological changes; their position on Israel as well as political pluralism (and more) is in flux and not a monolith.

]]> By: John Doe Jew http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/what-will-obama-tell-the-muslims/#comment-52 John Doe Jew Mon, 25 May 2009 07:54:10 +0000 http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/?p=242#comment-52 I think you should withdraw your last statement about Turkey. Turkey is on the verge of an Islamic revolution (remember the secular demonstrations?), following classic Da'Wa. Turkish statements about the last Gaza operation did not fall short of those of nations hostile to Israel. That didn't quite happen before. Don't know much about Morocco, but reading through non-mainstream news sites doesn't show a pretty picture. It's democratic suicide to allow parties interested in the demise of democracy to hold power. I agree with the general idea you present, but the risk of getting an Islamist block in any country - not to mention one that has a peace agreement with Israel, is a major voice in the Arab world and lots more - is a strategic risk. Maybe an opening of the political space in phases would be the safer path. I think you should withdraw your last statement about Turkey. Turkey is on the verge of an Islamic revolution (remember the secular demonstrations?), following classic Da’Wa. Turkish statements about the last Gaza operation did not fall short of those of nations hostile to Israel. That didn’t quite happen before.
Don’t know much about Morocco, but reading through non-mainstream news sites doesn’t show a pretty picture.

It’s democratic suicide to allow parties interested in the demise of democracy to hold power.

I agree with the general idea you present, but the risk of getting an Islamist block in any country – not to mention one that has a peace agreement with Israel, is a major voice in the Arab world and lots more – is a strategic risk.
Maybe an opening of the political space in phases would be the safer path.

]]> By: Dina http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/what-will-obama-tell-the-muslims/#comment-51 Dina Mon, 25 May 2009 01:12:54 +0000 http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/?p=242#comment-51 Well, the reason more people did not vote indicates that Islamists do not have the widespread support many in the West mistakenly think. But your argument reinforces an essential point: there is more to democracy than elections. Again, the completely closed political space gives more room for the Islamists while completely stifling any liberal opposition. This is why an opening of the political space--which the U.S. briefly catalyzed in 2005--is essential to allow the third alternative to compellingly emerge, and to gain a constituency. As long as people feel their voice does not matter, and short of strongly supporting either Mubarak or the Islamists, they have no incentive to vote or get involved in anyway. There must be some opening so that more people can get involved, namely they must feel there are voices out there that accurately reflect their interests that they can support without threat to their life or liberty, which, under the current emergency state, is not the case. And I would urge you to examine what Islamist parties have done when they are legitimately integrated into the political space--just look at Turkey and Morocco as examples. While I am not personally invested in defending them, and do not myself support them, it is important not to be biased and make blanket statements/predictions simply because you do not agree with a particular group. Well, the reason more people did not vote indicates that Islamists do not have the widespread support many in the West mistakenly think. But your argument reinforces an essential point: there is more to democracy than elections. Again, the completely closed political space gives more room for the Islamists while completely stifling any liberal opposition. This is why an opening of the political space–which the U.S. briefly catalyzed in 2005–is essential to allow the third alternative to compellingly emerge, and to gain a constituency. As long as people feel their voice does not matter, and short of strongly supporting either Mubarak or the Islamists, they have no incentive to vote or get involved in anyway. There must be some opening so that more people can get involved, namely they must feel there are voices out there that accurately reflect their interests that they can support without threat to their life or liberty, which, under the current emergency state, is not the case.

And I would urge you to examine what Islamist parties have done when they are legitimately integrated into the political space–just look at Turkey and Morocco as examples. While I am not personally invested in defending them, and do not myself support them, it is important not to be biased and make blanket statements/predictions simply because you do not agree with a particular group.

]]> By: John Doe Jew http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/what-will-obama-tell-the-muslims/#comment-49 John Doe Jew Sun, 24 May 2009 11:43:26 +0000 http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/?p=242#comment-49 I tend to think that if more people would have voted, the Islamists would have gotten more votes. From what I see, the entire Muslim world is just turning more and more radical and hardcore, violent, Islam. Silent majorities don't get anybody anywhere. In fact, they are helpful towards those who want to abuse the democratic system. Another interesting point - what are the repercussions? Say we do have perfectly democratic elections in Egypt, and the Islamist block gets significant government power. The Brotherhood are quite practical and will not upset things until the moment is right. For them. I tend to think that if more people would have voted, the Islamists would have gotten more votes. From what I see, the entire Muslim world is just turning more and more radical and hardcore, violent, Islam.

Silent majorities don’t get anybody anywhere. In fact, they are helpful towards those who want to abuse the democratic system.

Another interesting point – what are the repercussions? Say we do have perfectly democratic elections in Egypt, and the Islamist block gets significant government power. The Brotherhood are quite practical and will not upset things until the moment is right.
For them.

]]> By: Dina http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/what-will-obama-tell-the-muslims/#comment-24 Dina Sun, 24 May 2009 05:24:05 +0000 http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/?p=242#comment-24 As a matter of fact, John Doe, the only hope for a third alternative to the autocrats and theocrats to emerge is through democratization. In Egypt in 2005, only 20% out of 20% of the population at large that turned out to vote in parliamentary elections voted for Islamist candidates. That tells us that the vast majority are a silent majority that approve neither of Mubarak or the Brotherhood. The status quo, and support for it (by the U.S. and others), maintains this (false) dichotomy that distorts the reality of the Egyptian political landscape while consolidating Mubarak's hold on power. As a matter of fact, John Doe, the only hope for a third alternative to the autocrats and theocrats to emerge is through democratization. In Egypt in 2005, only 20% out of 20% of the population at large that turned out to vote in parliamentary elections voted for Islamist candidates. That tells us that the vast majority are a silent majority that approve neither of Mubarak or the Brotherhood. The status quo, and support for it (by the U.S. and others), maintains this (false) dichotomy that distorts the reality of the Egyptian political landscape while consolidating Mubarak’s hold on power.

]]> By: John Doe Jew http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/what-will-obama-tell-the-muslims/#comment-23 John Doe Jew Sat, 23 May 2009 15:18:24 +0000 http://www.robinshepherdonline.com/?p=242#comment-23 Democratizing the Arab world will result in democratically elected Islamist regimes. That's how Bush's democratic experiment in Egypt failed. What makes you think anything will change? Will the Islamists lose their appeal among the 99.99999% Muslim Middle-East anytime soon? I don't think so. Democratizing the Arab world will result in democratically elected Islamist regimes. That’s how Bush’s democratic experiment in Egypt failed. What makes you think anything will change?
Will the Islamists lose their appeal among the 99.99999% Muslim Middle-East anytime soon? I don’t think so.

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